Episode 23

"Plus Size Player" by Danielle Allen: Why Curvy Heriones Are Changing Romance

One of my newest favorite authors is Danielle Allen, author of "Curvy Girl Summer," among many other titles. Danielle is a life and relationship coach and her insights into the dynamics of healthy relationships shine through in the way she writes her characters and their interactions. It is very important to her that her characters are loved as they are, and that they interact with each other in an emotionally mature way.

Her newest romance, "Plus Size Player," follows the story of Nina, best friend of the heroine in "Curvy Girl Summer." Nina is curvy, confident, and sure about who she is and what she wants. Get ready for a spicy romance featuring plus size black women with natural hairstyles who aren't interested in changing themselves for anyone. The final book in the series is coming out in April 2026, but you can get "Plus Size Player" now!

Find this and other recommendations at The CultureLit online BookShop and support independent bookstores at Visit my bookshop!

Culture Lit is a community celebrating black women and black love, and a reminder that black women deserve joy, love success, second chances, and all the beautiful magic the world has to offer.

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Transcript
Octavia Marie:

hi and welcome to Culture Lit, the podcast where black

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love stories, black romance and

black authors take center stage.

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I'm your host, Octavia Marie, and

today we have a very special guest, USA

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today, bestselling author, podcast host,

and your favorite romance author's.

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Favorite romance author Danielle Allen.

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Danielle Wild Readers last

year with Kirby Girl Summer.

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This was her first

traditionally published novel.

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Now she's back with plus

size player and Nina's story.

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Nina is confident she's sexy.

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There are some laugh out

loud moments in this book.

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And features one of, I think one of the

most, self-possessed main characters

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that I've read in a long time.

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we'll be talking about, representation,

modern dating and the toxic sludge that

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is out there, this modest dating world.

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And, uh, I was like, okay, I don't know

what's going on, but there is toxic

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sledge in the dating pool right now.

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and the reality of being a plus

size black woman in romance.

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And so, oh, also.

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That helicopter scene,

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I was like, oh, I dunno

if I'm ready for this.

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so Danielle, welcome to Cultural Lit.

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I'm really excited to have you here.

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Thank you so much.

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I loved, loved that intro.

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I appreciate that so, so much.

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So, but thank you for having me.

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I try to do that.

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I, I tried to give us some, some razzle

dazzle coming in there that you thank you.

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Thank you.

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So for those kind of just

meeting you for the first time,

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I don't know how that's possible.

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now I will say, you were

on my TBR list forever.

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And you have like such

an extensive catalog.

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and I knew there were a couple of books

that had been floating around there from

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Danielle Allen and I was like, oh, I

wanna put that on my, it's on my TBR list.

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And then last year, curvy

Girl Summer was everywhere.

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So Curvy Girl Summer is the first

book I've actually read of you.

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I've known of you and I, I just

hadn't gotta to your books.

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And so after Kirby Girl

Summer, I immediately was

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like, hit your back catalog.

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but for the listeners or the kind

of just meeting you for the first

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time, how would you describe

the kind of stories you write?

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Oh, so.

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Everything I write, I always say

that you never know what you're gonna

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get with a Danielle Allen story.

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Like you'll know it's good, you know

it's gonna have spice, but like it

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could be anything because I write the

story that comes to me like, I don't

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know, I don't know what the trends are.

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I don't know what's, like right

now I can only write what like

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the characters are speaking to

me, the story that's coming to me.

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And so it could be something that is more

rom comish, like Kirby Girl Summer, and I

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guess plus size player, like Zola stories.

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then I had the hot holiday hookups, which

are short, sexy, like quick little bites.

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quick little novellas.

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Then there's the egg

island Poe inspired ones.

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The women of V there's the, broken

clocks, which is an, uh, fictional,

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don't get me started on broken clocks.

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It's romantic fiction.

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I won't say it's not romance, summer after

I read Kirby or Summer, I was like, okay.

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I immediately hit like the back catalog.

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So like the first one I read

was, I think, gray Sweat.

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What, what is the Gray Sweats?

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One season, sweatpants season?

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And then it was like cuffing season.

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Mm-hmm.

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And so then after that I was like, I was

in it, I was like, oh, these were spicy

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too, and then I gotta broken clocks.

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And I was like, I'm like, oh,

this is one's gonna be different.

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And then at the end I was like.

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I think I'm, I have to break.

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I had to take, I was like,

I have to put her down now.

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I was so hardworking.

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I was like, what is this?

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I was like, and I wasn't looking through

pages and I'm like, did, is there some?

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I was like, no, there's

gotta be an update.

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Like, am I missing pages?

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Uh, I'm still like, I was like, do

I have to break up with Danielle?

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Listen, you are not the first

person to have said that.

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The thing is, is that there is a

lesson in everything that I write.

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Yeah.

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And that one, the particular lesson

was to live life to the fullest.

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Mm-hmm.

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To not put your life on hold for anything.

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'cause tomorrow's not

promised to any of us.

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And so, just like in sweatpants

season, the, the lesson was

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like, do we objectify men?

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Sure, but not to the degree

that they objectify women.

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And so when you look at the discrepancy,

men wouldn't be able to handle if they

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were objectified the way that we are.

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And so that was the, so there's

always a lesson and a message.

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And so I felt like that story,

that was how I wanted people to

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walk away and like reevaluate their

lives and how they were living.

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And so, a number of people have

said that about that story.

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And so I got that.

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and it, it resonated.

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It resonated with me.

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So, because I had just, think when I

read that last year, I was probably

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one year post chemo radiation.

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I had been through diagnosed with

cancer in:

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And then, so 2023 for me was, kind of,

I was healing and a lot was going on.

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And so you are like, you know, when

you go through something like that, you

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start looking at and reeva evaluating

and that's exactly what I got out of it.

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But I was just like, and so, um,

I I, I think when you go through

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something like that anyway, you,

you, you tend to kind of re you know,

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just look at your life and, you know,

look at doing things differently.

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And hence I'm in Mexico for, and it was

like, I'm gonna stay a little longer.

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Absolutely.

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Yeah.

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So I was like, you know, I, I come from a

career from, you know, 20 plus years in.

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PR and, started this podcast, one Black

Romance got me through, all of that.

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you know, during chemo, I'm

reading, that's all I read.

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I didn't want to watch, I

wanted nothing but vibes.

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And so I was, you know, I

been a Black romance reader.

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I started out years and years ago.

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I used to do copy editing for Black

Romance books, like right outta college.

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So this was like very early on.

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Um, started like with, uh, Abe Books,

BET books way, way, way, way, way back.

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But romance has always been kind of

just like a part of my adult life.

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Um, and I think one of the first

books I read, black Romance Books was,

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you know, I was probably 14, 15, and

I'm about to date myself right here.

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and it was a book.

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My mom had The Texas Rose or

the yellow, the yellow Roses of

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Texas or something like that.

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and it was like the first time that

I had seen black women and black men.

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This one was a historical romance,

but still just like, uh, us.

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And so one of the things about you

that I find, so like your stories

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is the language, the conversation,

and How they talk to each other.

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And I was like, yeah, and you know,

it, it's relatable, it's authentic.

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And I'm like, yeah, the dialogue

is so like, it, it feels like I'm

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talking to my girls or it feels like

a conversation I've had with a guy,

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or just the interaction with them.

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It's, it's, it was easy.

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So that's what I liked about Nina

and Russell and plus-size player.

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their conversation,

their, their interactions.

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It was just all very easy.

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there was no struggle.

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how do you go into writing the

Such sharp and witty dialogue.

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Thank, well first thank you so much.

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so because my background is

in counseling, I'm very, very.

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In tune with how one should communicate

and I love to communicate in general,

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and I think it's such a important

and powerful way to like not just get

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to know the characters, like mm-hmm.

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Through their dialogue.

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You get to know who they are, but also

bringing the characters closer together.

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And so, it's always been

important to me and like some

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people don't like dialogue heavy.

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Stories.

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And, and that's okay too.

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But like for me, I'm always going to write

like heavy dialogue because I think that

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it is such an important, I feel like we

need to do more talking in real life.

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And so I feel like the characters

communicate and for the most part

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communicate well and then Yes.

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See them grow from there.

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And I'm fascinated with that because,

um, when I read that, that you were,

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uh, life coach you can see that

shining through in the characters,

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their emotional intelligence.

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Like there's no misunderstanding,

there's no miscommunication.

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They, like you said,

they communicate well.

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and so I, I.

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your experience in, in that dialogue.

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It shapes the way clearly

that you approach romance.

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I even saw it with, Kirby Girl

Summer and I was just like,

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everybody's emotionally mature.

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I loved it.

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Thank you.

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Thank you.

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I think it's so important to have

conversations even when they're

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hard and I think that we as people

don't do that like we should.

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Yeah.

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And if I can show how the conversations

could go, hopefully that would inspire

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someone to be able to tell somebody what

it is that they want instead of being

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upset that they're not getting what

they want out of the relationship, but

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never saying what it is that they want.

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There's that disconnect and it's like,

well, they should know, but it's like

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everybody wants something different.

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So like that person, I mean, there's

some things like lying and cheating.

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Yes.

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You should know that

you should not do that.

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Outside of that though, the particular

needs that you have, if you don't

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communicate that to someone,

how are they supposed to know?

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And so I like always hope that

someone sees an interaction and if

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they identify with it and relate to

it or are experiencing it, they then

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are like, okay, maybe this is how

I can approach this with my person.

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Right.

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cause sometimes, people are

like, oh, you re romance.

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Hell yeah.

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Because, I think, you know, especially now

the, the way romance is, you know, it's

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constantly evolving and we're getting new.

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Black authors and people that, you know,

different relationships and things,

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and so they're so authentic, so real.

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Like I looked at their characters.

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I was like, I could see all of, because

the date, the dates from Kirby Girl

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Summer, and I was like, was somebody

in my, because I have, I was like,

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at least two of those experiences.

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I was like, okay, so we've

all had these experiences.

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Yes.

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Like the married man.

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And I'm like, yes.

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Like, okay, wait, is that your wife?

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Like what?

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I was in a grocery store once and I walked

in the grocery store and I saw this guy

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or him and a girl walk in in front of me.

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So I'd seen them.

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what caught my attention

is the shoes she had on.

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I was like, Ooh, those cute.

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Her shoes were cute.

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and so, I had, you know, passed him in,

passed them in the grocery store, and then

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probably about five minutes in the grocery

store, he comes down my aisle and I saw

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him and I just, you know, kept going.

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And he stops and he says something to

me, and I looked at him and he's like,

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you know, I just had to, you know, stop

and you're so beautiful and blah, blah.

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I said, oh, thank you.

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And I just, you know, kept it moving.

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And he was like, you know,

I'd love to know take.

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And I thought, and I looked at

him and I said, are you dead ass?

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It was like,

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and I said, what about the wife?

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You walked in, you know, I saw the

ring and I'm, you gotta, you literally

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have a ring on your finger right now.

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You walked in here with her.

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Are you dead ass trying to pick somebody

up in the grocery store with your wife?

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Two aisles over?

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That is wild.

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But it's the audacity,

the, it's the audacity.

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And like one of the things that I wanted

people to see with Aaliyah's date was that

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it's not, because some people personalize

those experiences and it's like, what is

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it about me that makes him like a married

man think that I would be okay with that?

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What is it about me that they, that

a man thinks that X, Y, and Z and

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then they don't talk about it, right?

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And so then it feels like, oh,

this is only happening to me.

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And I wanted people to see that

like, no, this is happening because

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they don't know how to act like

those particular individuals.

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It has nothing to do with anything

that you're putting out or projecting.

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This is the ones who would lie about.

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Not being married when they are married,

they are gonna do that regardless.

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It does not matter that Yeah, for sure.

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Whether that you are confident, it don't.

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It doesn't matter if you're big or

small, tall or short, your race, like

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if someone is committed to lying about

their relationship status, they're gonna

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do it and so like it hopefully will take

the personalization out of it so that

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people aren't feeling like, oh man, I'm

doing something to attract this type

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of energy or this type of behavior.

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It's like, no, it's not you.

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No, there's just toxic

sludge in the dating pool.

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But I absolutely loved Russ.

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He was like, and I'm like, oh,

that, that's, that's refreshing.

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And, and it gives you, you know, like

you said, it shows women that no,

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there's, yes, there's this out there,

but there's also this out there.

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Exactly.

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Exactly.

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Yeah.

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There are, um, amazing men out there.

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There are so many amazing men too.

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And I think that sometimes, because if

you run into a not so great men, and

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then you run into another one, then you

start to feel like, oh wait a minute.

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But they're out there too, is just, you

know, you gotta keep your eyes peopled

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and like, protect yourself from the

ones who, who are giving you bad vibes.

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And then Exactly.

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Like give all your good energy to

the, to all the good ones out there.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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So I've been waiting on Nina's story.

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The reader, listeners may not know.

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Uh, Nina is Aaliyah's best

friend from Kirby Girl Summer.

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This is now book two in your curve series.

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Right.

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And Nina is Aaliyah's best friend.

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We got a little bit of Nina and

her shenanigans in the first book

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and, and their, their relationship.

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And then there's a third

Jasmine and Jasmine is coming.

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Um, we got a little glimpse to

Jasmine what's going on her towards

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the end of plus size player.

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Yeah.

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What inspired Nina Sori?

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Like I said, she's like, she's a

character that I was like, yes.

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Um, she is just, you know, confident.

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There's no, you know, she wants to change

or she's on some type of self decept.

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She is like immediately

like, oh, she's that girl.

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Like, and she knows she's that

girl and always been that girl.

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That girl.

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Okay.

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Yeah.

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Yes.

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So with Aaliyah, she is confident, but

like her, she was hesitant about dating.

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Mm-hmm.

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She wanted to be in a relationship.

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She wasn't confident in the dating space.

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Mm-hmm.

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She was confident about who

she was, what she looked like.

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It was just like, oh, I'm not

trying to go on all these dates.

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And Nina was like, well, why not?

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Like, you need, like, be out there and

if you were trying to find, looking for,

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because I'm, I'm finding what I'm looking

for and it's spread over these four men.

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And so Nina though is not only

confident in who she is, she is

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confident in like her system.

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Right.

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The thing that throws her off her

like confidence a little bit is the

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fact that this one man is showing up

and showing out in a way that she's

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like, wait a minute, I didn't know.

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Like, because she is committed

to the idea, like she sees what

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true love and true romance looks

like at home with her parents.

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Mm-hmm.

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And parents have always instilled in

her like, no, you don't settle for

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anything less than this, like date

around, date as many men as you need to.

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You do not settle because

you are that girl.

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So like, she has always had that

energy and she's been supported

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and loved and also has seen love.

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So it wasn't coming from a, a traumatic

place like, oh, I was, I was done wrong,

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so I'm never gonna like settle down.

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She just felt like in order for me to have

the best quality experience while dating.

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I'm going to like, relieve the

pressure off of these men and

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let them do what they're good at.

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Right.

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And I have a box for

each of them to check.

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And they can, they can do that.

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and you know, Jasmine is also

confident, but she is divorced

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and not looking for love at all.

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And so all three of them have completely

different takes on romance and love,

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but they are all confident women who are

navigating life in a bigger body with

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their natural hair and their brown skin.

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And I feel like that, I knew that

for my first traditional titles,

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I wanted to tell these stories.

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I wanted it to be, and I like,

when I pitched it, it was that

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Aaliyah's was a slow burn.

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Because that's who Aaliyah

is as a person, like right?

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She's not going to make any moves

with men that don't qualify.

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And with Nina, she is, you see her

on her dates with these different

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men and you can see why she would

like each of the men that she's with.

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But you can also see why

the one who caught her eye

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catches her eye and so baby.

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Okay.

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And so then with Jasmine, that story is

different than the other two because you

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know that she's going through some things

in her hometown, like, you know, that

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like stuff is going on with her aunt.

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And so her story is different, but

like still valid and valuable and

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like necessary to this whole universe

because there are some people who are.

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Very confident in who they are and

what they're looking for, but they are

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apprehensive about the act of dating.

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And I feel like that's where

a, a number of people fall.

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Nina is more where we aspire to be, where

it's like she is confident and not only

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who she is, but what she wants and like

how she gonna get there and all of that.

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And so she moves through the

world in that way and she moves

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through men in that way too.

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And then Jasmine is very confident in

who she is, but like post divorce, she's

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just like, oh no, I'm, I'm good off that.

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Like I'm good.

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I, I would like some, dick

would be nice, but like I'm

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completely okay with, chilling.

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And so like, they all have different

perspectives and I just felt like.

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In the traditional space, in the

indie space, there are so many

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amazing books with fat black heroines.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Doing their thing.

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But in the traditional space, I can't

think of any where their fat black

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with natural hair and their story isn't

like revolving around, losing weight

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or like getting fit for the like.

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So it just means that

I, I can't think of any.

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And so that's why it was important for

me to, to write and tell these stories.

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Yeah.

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And that's, that's why I, I think

with Curvy Girl Summer, it was

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such a resounding success that

because so many of us got it.

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:

And you know, like you said, usually

there's some, some breakup that causes

364

:

some, you know, or somebody said something

or there's somebody, you know, there's

365

:

always some, you know, I'm searching,

I'm self discovery, learning to love

366

:

yourself, kind of always going around.

367

:

But here's someone who's like,

I'm, I'm cool with who I am.

368

:

And there's nothing that, you

know, throughout the book, she's

369

:

not trying to change herself.

370

:

Yeah.

371

:

And that's what I love.

372

:

And, and so I like that about Now in

Kirby Girl Summer, I wanted to throw Punch

373

:

Aaliyah's.

374

:

Is it uncle?

375

:

I punch the uncle.

376

:

But you know, even that was

still, she didn't let that.

377

:

You know, any other book, you,

you, you know, that would've been

378

:

some huge emotional something.

379

:

She was just like, look,

you know, I liked you.

380

:

She had her boundaries and she

understood who she was and she,

381

:

you know, and one, yeah, you're my

family, but also we not gonna do this.

382

:

Okay.

383

:

And she had things to say in her

head, but she also is the type that

384

:

like, okay, I'm trying to respect

my elders, but you pushing me.

385

:

But like, she wasn't saying it

to him like he needed to hear it.

386

:

But I think that like, there are an,

because if Nina was in that situation,

387

:

Nina would've, would've said something

because we all handle things differently.

388

:

Right?

389

:

And so, and she kind of did have,

uh, it didn't come from family, it

390

:

came from, in little shade comments

from, someone who, you know, who

391

:

would come up to her in a bar or

who was supposed to be her coworker,

392

:

but she immediately shut it down.

393

:

Exactly like it because the thing is, fat

phobias is always constantly happening.

394

:

Yeah.

395

:

So like all of them experience it

because I don't know another fat

396

:

woman who has not experienced it.

397

:

And so like even whether it's like

super direct, like Uncle Al's, if it's

398

:

like shady, like the stuff that Nina

dealt with, if it's like a whole thing,

399

:

like some stuff that Jasmine dealt

with, it happens regardless of, and so

400

:

it would not be true to who they are.

401

:

If it didn't happen in the book and

you saw it and then saw how, for none

402

:

of them, like none of them, it did not

change how they felt about themselves.

403

:

It did not like, it was just like,

oh, I'm gonna check it because, like,

404

:

why are you talking to me like that?

405

:

Or I like, I'm gonna call it out because

why are you talking to me like that?

406

:

But it never, nobody, none of them

went back home and cried about

407

:

it and was like, oh my goodness.

408

:

Like I am, I am too fat to have this

gorgeous man who is, who wants me.

409

:

I gotta lose, you know,

50 pounds in two weeks.

410

:

Right?

411

:

Like it, like it was never giving that.

412

:

And so that's what I wanted people

to see also that like, people are

413

:

gonna say like whatever they wanna

say, and it sucks because people

414

:

are not nice all the time, but.

415

:

It can hurt your feelings, but don't let

it change how you feel about yourself.

416

:

Don't let it exactly negatively

impact your self worth.

417

:

It can be like, man,

why did they say that?

418

:

That hurt my feelings carrying on.

419

:

Because it should not have a

bearing on how you feel about you.

420

:

Exactly.

421

:

And you know, I kind of have said

this a little bit already, but

422

:

again, I love that Nina wasn't

looking to be fixed or changed.

423

:

she wasn't on some journey or trying to

shrink herself to fit into, some, box that

424

:

they wanna, you know, put us in sometimes.

425

:

why was it so important to you to center

like her pleasure, her power, even

426

:

the playfulness between her and Russ?

427

:

in her arc.

428

:

And like you said though, the three in

the cur series are so very different.

429

:

but there's a power in, Nina.

430

:

And also, it's kind of a

two-parter here, because also

431

:

too many podcast bros have mics.

432

:

but it's always something about,

black women are too this, or,

433

:

you know, relationships aren't

working, is this whole conversation.

434

:

But the, the other thing that

I liked about Russ is that

435

:

he recognized who she was.

436

:

There was nothing he was

trying to change about her.

437

:

he was into her because of exactly that.

438

:

And he wasn't trying to, you know, he

knew that she had, she, like he said,

439

:

you know, there was a part he said,

I knew immediately, again, she was

440

:

that girl and he wasn't, it wasn't

something that he tried to change

441

:

about her or wanted to fit her into

this, you know, these relationships

442

:

where it's not a partnership.

443

:

It's, you know, you are trying to force

someone into some type of submission.

444

:

And I was like, okay, if that's

what you looking for, then go

445

:

find that girl who is into that.

446

:

Stop trying to put a woman who

is, you know, aina into that role.

447

:

That's that's not who she's, if

that's who you want, then go find her.

448

:

Go find that woman that is her and

stop trying to put, you know, force

449

:

women into this, this role that

you feel necessary in order for the

450

:

relationship or partnership to work.

451

:

And I like that.

452

:

He, that's what he liked about her.

453

:

Yes.

454

:

He loved her down.

455

:

And I feel like, I mean,

but honestly, they all did.

456

:

Like they all would have, like

if she would've picked them like

457

:

they was trying to get chose.

458

:

And she, and I love that

part, that aspect of it.

459

:

Okay.

460

:

And so like they were willing to

accept whatever she was willing to get.

461

:

And just important because I feel like

there are a number of fat women who got

462

:

it like that and are moving like that.

463

:

And I feel like that's not

highlighted in our society.

464

:

It's whenever you see fat women

depicted, it typically is like she's

465

:

the sassy best friend, or she is

like a homely, like already settled

466

:

down Mary type, like to the side.

467

:

Um, but not like just

embracing who she is.

468

:

What's she's about?

469

:

How she is that girl.

470

:

Like just not embracing her power,

her pleasure, her essence, her

471

:

wants, her, needs her desires.

472

:

And I feel like why not?

473

:

'cause we're deserving too.

474

:

Exactly.

475

:

We're deserving of all of that.

476

:

So I wanted to showcase someone who

not only knew it, but was walking in,

477

:

standing on it, and walking in it.

478

:

And I feel like she embodies

like what a lot of people

479

:

the dating space would enjoy.

480

:

Because it's like, even if you don't

want a roster of men, but knowing

481

:

your worth in every situation.

482

:

'cause it wasn't who she is as a

person, it's How she handles business,

483

:

how she handles her work life, uh,

being out and about with the men

484

:

that she deals with, just her moving

in that confidence in that power.

485

:

I felt like it was important for not

only other fat women to see, for all

486

:

people to see because it shouldn't

be like, oh my gosh, this is rare.

487

:

Like, because in my life I know plenty

of fat women who not only play, are out

488

:

here being a boss and doing what they

want to do and living life on their terms.

489

:

And so it's just being able to bring that

to the forefront makes me happy because

490

:

I feel like other, Other fat women knew.

491

:

I feel like everybody else needed to know

also that like, no, we move like this too.

492

:

Like, it's completely okay for us to

stand in our power and to honor what

493

:

it is that we want and our pleasure.

494

:

Yeah, abso absolutely.

495

:

And speaking of pleasure,

nice little segue there.

496

:

I don't wanna spoil too much.

497

:

I wanna leave a little,

little suspense out there.

498

:

Yes, please.

499

:

But can we talk about

the helicopter scene?

500

:

I was like, oh, we gonna

kick it off at the beginning.

501

:

I said, oh, this is gonna be

a good, that scene was hot.

502

:

And I was like, oh.

503

:

so.

504

:

And you can write a hot scene

that is a believable hot scene.

505

:

You, I was like, oh, okay, wait a minute.

506

:

I'm gonna gimme a little ice here.

507

:

You know, I was like, is that my

hot flashes or what's going on here?

508

:

How do you approach writing

these scenes that are, cause I

509

:

was like, wait, what did he say?

510

:

So they're like, they heated them,

but also it doesn't sound like it's

511

:

just, you know, thrown in there for

the sake of throwing it in there.

512

:

and it, you know, there's an

emotional resonance with it.

513

:

It all kind of aligns and

you're like, okay, this

514

:

is her favorite.

515

:

He gotta be.

516

:

Yeah.

517

:

Like, and he was like, I

feel like Russ is a good man.

518

:

Okay.

519

:

And, and a good man.

520

:

Savannah a good man.

521

:

Savannah.

522

:

But to be fair, the

other ones were good too.

523

:

But for Nina, for Nina, Russ.

524

:

So when it Rus Rus Russ, when it started

sitting in my head, like I saw it play

525

:

out and it felt very much like how, that's

just how they have always gotten down.

526

:

Because when we meet Russ,

they've already had eight dates.

527

:

They've been kicking it all

summer for a few months.

528

:

Yeah.

529

:

So they, they met at the top

of June at a party and I.

530

:

So we're meeting them at date

nine and their chemistry is

531

:

and has always been like that.

532

:

And so because I don't

wanna spoil anything at all.

533

:

Yeah.

534

:

It's like, just wait to see

chapter And it comes early.

535

:

It comes early chapter two.

536

:

'cause I feel like how any experience

that they have, their chemistry just

537

:

is like that when they're together.

538

:

So that's how it came about.

539

:

Is that, is that all imagination or?

540

:

I've never been on a helicopter.

541

:

I'll say that.

542

:

I've never been on a helicopter.

543

:

Are we in the mile high club though?

544

:

I've never been on a helicopter.

545

:

And so like, I dunno,

546

:

like, like that is a, and when

it came in my head, I felt

547

:

like cause Nina loved the sky.

548

:

Mm-hmm.

549

:

And so for an experience to happen

and it's like, oh, I'm seeing stars

550

:

in all, all the ways I can see stars

in all the things and all the ways.

551

:

I'm gonna leave it at that.

552

:

I'm, I'm gonna leave it at that.

553

:

now I also really loved the cover.

554

:

I'm, I'm not sure where I am with

all of, uh, sometimes these, the

555

:

cartoony looking, I can leave it, but

your cover, it, it almost was more

556

:

like, it, it didn't feel cartoony.

557

:

It was almost like a, a, a

painting of a real couple.

558

:

So it, it was more art like, and

I was like, I love, you know,

559

:

the ban two knots and just like,

it was all very, and you know.

560

:

I literally vision.

561

:

I was like, okay, this is what

I envisioned her looking like.

562

:

And I was like, okay, this is

what Russ like, it's very, I

563

:

think it captured them perfectly.

564

:

how did the cover come about?

565

:

Is that were, did you have

a hand in the cover design?

566

:

Did you have or was that all publishing?

567

:

I was able to select the,

like Bramble was amazing.

568

:

I was able to select the cover artist

that I wanted, and so I saw, Keo stuff

569

:

and I was like, oh, I like the style.

570

:

So the only specifications I gave

them for all three covers was

571

:

that They need to be visibly fat.

572

:

Like not alluding to not her

standing behind him trying to

573

:

hide her body, like visibly fat.

574

:

Like I wanna see some rolls and some,

like you know, also the hairstyles.

575

:

I wanted Aaliyah to have her like

fro out just like maybe, maybe a flat

576

:

iron, try to like comb through it

to like manage, but like, definitely

577

:

her natural tresses I wanted.

578

:

Um, and plus as player, I wanted

Nina to have her band two knots.

579

:

And I wanted, even though she only

has, she only wears them when she goes

580

:

to this one, like right formal event.

581

:

But like, I wanted to see Bantu knots

on the cover of a traditional, I.

582

:

Romance.

583

:

Um, and I loved how you had her wear

the ban two knots to a formal event.

584

:

Yes.

585

:

And so like, and I feel like, and

then the next day she took 'em, she

586

:

took 'em down and was wearing, like,

now it's just stretched out fro

587

:

and then, know, Jasmine has locks.

588

:

And so like, it was just important to

me to, to be able to show that these

589

:

are fat black women with natural hair

being like loved and adored as they

590

:

should because we are worthy of love

because there's so much negativity that

591

:

is thrown at black women or women in

general, black women in particular,

592

:

fat, black women, and then natural hair.

593

:

And so I knew that I wanted

the covers to have them look.

594

:

The way they needed to look.

595

:

And then, so that's what I all I

really said, and then they came back

596

:

with these three and I was just like,

love it, love everything about it.

597

:

Home run.

598

:

So going back, I think we, we kind

of touched on this a little bit

599

:

'cause I'm, I'm fascinated with

your, you know, real life career and

600

:

my best friend is also a therapist.

601

:

and so there's off like a disconnect

between what readers expect in romance

602

:

fiction, I think, versus real life dating.

603

:

And then, so as a re like I said, I can

tell like you are very intentional with,

604

:

the interactions with the characters

and as a relationship coach and,

605

:

therapist, how do you balance that gap?

606

:

So I feel like if you look at.

607

:

Russ, he's amazing.

608

:

He wouldn't have been perfect for Aaliyah.

609

:

And if you look at Ahad, he's amazing.

610

:

But he wouldn't have

been perfect for Nina.

611

:

No.

612

:

So it's like knowing your

characters and pairing them with

613

:

the people who are meant for them.

614

:

Just like in real life, we sometimes we

try to make things fit that don't fit.

615

:

And like you were saying before,

how people try to take a certain

616

:

woman and like, oh no, I, I,

I saw that you were like this.

617

:

I wanna change you and make you

the way I want you, instead of just

618

:

going for the person that you want,

like going for the type of woman

619

:

that you want instead of trying to

take this woman and make her that.

620

:

So like for, for me, I

don't feel like it is.

621

:

That difficult to, to like thread

that because I believe that in

622

:

dating, whoever you're dating, male

or female, respect is necessary.

623

:

So like, yeah, having someone, absolutely.

624

:

You need to respect that person.

625

:

They need to respect you.

626

:

You need to enjoy that person's company.

627

:

They need to enjoy your company.

628

:

And like some things that when people

try to like demonize and minimize

629

:

romance and they're like, oh, it's

giving you unrealistic expectations.

630

:

But what's unrealistic about showing

up for someone, being there, for

631

:

someone, supporting them, loving them.

632

:

Like that's not unrealistic.

633

:

And so, and.

634

:

just feel like that is

part of the struggle.

635

:

I think people have when, when they're

like, oh, this is unrealistic, and it's

636

:

like, it's really not because I wouldn't

date someone who treated me poorly or,

637

:

you know, all these negative things.

638

:

It's not unrealistic to want to be treated

well to, to want to be talked to nicely,

639

:

to want to be like loved and desired.

640

:

Those are things that are

normal, everyday things.

641

:

And so if you think that that's

unrealistic, then that's something

642

:

that you have to unpack from in here

in your, in your heart, in your spirit,

643

:

in your soul, because there's something

within you that's saying that you.

644

:

Don't think you are worthy

of being loved and respected.

645

:

And it's, it's the, the man in the book

does not like that man may not be the man

646

:

for you like that type of man, because

just like Russ is not like for Aaliyah,

647

:

like the, that, that they wouldn't have

hit it off like that wouldn't have been

648

:

their, their thing, but they're perfect

for the people that they were paired with.

649

:

And so sometimes we have to like,

take a step back and figure out why we

650

:

think we don't deserve more than what

we're getting and then move from there.

651

:

Absolutely.

652

:

Absolutely.

653

:

And then that has always, behooved me

and I'm, when, you know, men and women

654

:

say, you know, it's not realistic, it's,

you know, and I'm like at the core of.

655

:

Of these books is relationships.

656

:

At the core of these books are

relationships to, between a black man

657

:

and a black woman at the core is, you

know, a black man who is loves her down.

658

:

Like what is unrealistic about

that at at the core is a man that

659

:

wants to see his partner happy.

660

:

Yes.

661

:

Yes.

662

:

You like at the core

is human relationships.

663

:

What is unrealistic about that?

664

:

Exactly.

665

:

And I feel like as long as people believe

that, that's unrealistic, they will

666

:

continue to settle for less than that.

667

:

And I want more for all of us men.

668

:

Agreed.

669

:

Like across the board.

670

:

I want more for all of us.

671

:

Yeah.

672

:

Feel like deserve more

because you deserve it.

673

:

Exactly, and, and you know, as,

and, and, and I see so many and

674

:

it, it saddens me and to see so

many women settling for mediocre.

675

:

Mm-hmm.

676

:

And basic struggle, love.

677

:

Yes.

678

:

Because absolutely not, yeah.

679

:

Like, not interested.

680

:

Not interested.

681

:

You can keep that.

682

:

I don't wanna be a part of it.

683

:

Um, there has.

684

:

Publishing has changed, especially

for black indie romance, black, well,

685

:

black romance, art, authors, period.

686

:

And you are now like kind of one of

those, you know, be before your, your

687

:

first curvy or some is your first

traditionally published, but prior to that

688

:

you were 30 books in as an indie author.

689

:

53.

690

:

Oh, excuse me.

691

:

My bad.

692

:

53 are, are you okay?

693

:

I'm missing you.

694

:

You, you're deep.

695

:

You got a strong back catalog.

696

:

I had, I knew it was, you

know, 30 years, but 53.

697

:

Wow.

698

:

So you're kind of like, you've seen

it and been there and done it all.

699

:

And so now we, you know, there's this

current discourse, uh, I don't know

700

:

if you've seen it on, um, they're

talking about the Australian who

701

:

hasn't written, not nam or one word.

702

:

Um, and it's like, oh, I wanted to be

an author and started a book talk and

703

:

now I'm a author and I got a book deal

for two books that I haven't written.

704

:

Not one word.

705

:

So who, whatever ghost writer is gonna

write that is gonna be, you know,

706

:

but you are like now in that space

and you're the, you're this big, this

707

:

hybrid author, but, There weren't

romance genres come a long way.

708

:

Still has a very, very long way to go.

709

:

and what do you think they're doing

well when it comes to representation

710

:

and where does it still need to grow?

711

:

I feel like it, just needs to grow.

712

:

Yeah.

713

:

Because there were, there was no way

a black author would've been able to.

714

:

Exactly.

715

:

So that's why I'm like, been

on TikTok for two months.

716

:

Not even two months, but this could

have never been a black author.

717

:

Right.

718

:

That's why I'm saying like, I, the only

thing I can say is that it needs to grow.

719

:

Like there's no, like, oh, well,

at least there, I don't wanna give

720

:

concessions to the bare minimum.

721

:

And so it's like, it just,

it needs to do better.

722

:

It needs to grow.

723

:

I feel very blessed and very

fortunate to be where I am.

724

:

I feel like Bramble has

taken like great care of me.

725

:

but I've heard horror stories, and

when I see things happening, People

726

:

are posting about what their publishers

aren't doing and all of that.

727

:

It like, it makes me sad because

when I see that, it's usually

728

:

black authors and authors of color.

729

:

Mm-hmm.

730

:

and I'm just like, that's not, it's lazy.

731

:

Mm-hmm.

732

:

It's very lazy because, I think in

even black film, black creatives,

733

:

black authors, there is no excuse

for you to say, oh, it doesn't sell.

734

:

Oh, yes.

735

:

The hell it does.

736

:

Sin just proved it does

entirely black cast.

737

:

Kirby Girl Summer last year proved it.

738

:

Sales, the readers are there.

739

:

It's not the readers, it's the publishers.

740

:

cause Black, they, they show up.

741

:

Look what's gonna happen at In Atlanta,

you know, the Black Romance Book Festival.

742

:

It's been sold out since literally

they announced it within minutes.

743

:

Sold out.

744

:

Yeah, sold out Quickly.

745

:

Quickly.

746

:

So I, is it the readers note?

747

:

It's you guys, it's publishing and for you

in the, the big:

748

:

know how to market it or you don't know?

749

:

No.

750

:

Yeah, you do.

751

:

Right?

752

:

You do.

753

:

You making, because you use

the same things that you

754

:

use for your other authors.

755

:

There's nothing different and this is

from, I mean, from a PR person, 20 plus.

756

:

And I, you know, I, so I've sat in

the rooms and heard the conversations

757

:

and I'm like, no, it's the same.

758

:

The strategy is the same.

759

:

The audience is different.

760

:

How you approach the

audience is different.

761

:

And that means you just need

to have more people in the room

762

:

that look like the audience.

763

:

Okay.

764

:

that's really what it boils down to,

because if the people write the books, but

765

:

the people who are making the decisions

are like, oh, no, I don't think so.

766

:

Then we have a, we have a disconnect.

767

:

There's a disconnect.

768

:

Yeah.

769

:

And if they were smart, I'm like,

look how much money centers just made

770

:

cost 90 million to make It didn't

crossed the billion dollar mark.

771

:

Exactly, exactly.

772

:

It's not difficult.

773

:

It's not brain surgery.

774

:

It's not difficult at all.

775

:

And again, so it boils down

to choices that need the DA.

776

:

Exactly.

777

:

And you're, are you choosing, right.

778

:

Are you choosing wrong?

779

:

I'm not even as entrenched in a, in

the, the publishing, you know, as I

780

:

used to be, but I, I mean, I'm like,

I can see it and I'm an outsider.

781

:

Uh, I mean basically

an outsider, but I see.

782

:

I'm like, I don't understand

what the disconnect is, but okay.

783

:

Move on because that's a.

784

:

That can be a whole nother podcast.

785

:

So now for some fun stuff, I know, like,

what can we, I, I know there's at least

786

:

one more book in the Curves series.

787

:

Um, so we got Jasmine, we got a

little bit of that, and then I'm

788

:

like, oh, what happened there?

789

:

So we got a little Jasmine

story at the end of this book,

790

:

the, the, the plus size player.

791

:

Mm-hmm.

792

:

so what can we expect?

793

:

Can you get a little bit of tease?

794

:

and also like what can we expect?

795

:

Like are there gonna be

more books after this?

796

:

Because I.

797

:

I, so they only bought, like, it

was a pitch, just three books.

798

:

And so they only bought three books.

799

:

So there's only three books at

this moment that are planned,

800

:

but a little tease about jazz.

801

:

Like jazz went to visit her aunt,

like in in Aaliyah's book, you know

802

:

that Ja like in the beginning when

Aaliyah's like, you know, are you okay?

803

:

Like, I hate to bother you.

804

:

And like every time they talk to

jazz, like it's been after she

805

:

hadn't been picking up the phone,

she hadn't been talking much,

806

:

she like, things are going on.

807

:

So Jazz's book is more, a little more

emotional, not broken clocks emotional,

808

:

but like a little more emotional because

she's dealing with the pressures of

809

:

the stuff that's happening back home.

810

:

And so you get to see

what's happening, um, from.

811

:

The from June at the end of the, like

about mid-June all the way through like

812

:

October or December, the New Year's

E Okay, so like, so you get a, you

813

:

get Jazz's story and you find out why

Jazz would in her hometown all summer.

814

:

And then you see how she

deals with all of that.

815

:

You see Aaliyah and whom she ended up

with and Nina and who she ended up with

816

:

in Jazz's book as they support their

women supporting their best friend.

817

:

So like you get to see the other couples

in, in Jazz's book because Jazz's book

818

:

stretches further beyond the summer than.

819

:

The first two, which were

just like summer flings.

820

:

So you get, you get highlights

and you get updates.

821

:

So I'm really, really excited for,

I'm excited for everybody to like

822

:

get to know Nina and then for them

to be able to see everything come

823

:

together for, in Jazz's story.

824

:

Yeah.

825

:

And I wondered, I was like, do we

get more of everyone, you know, as

826

:

you close out this kind of series?

827

:

but you know, you can't give too much in

there because Jasmine has her own story.

828

:

so I'm like, I'm excited to hear that.

829

:

you also have your Curvy Girl

Confessions podcast and baby.

830

:

That was an idea I had to try to

promote Curvy Girl Summer, but also

831

:

to just have fun with some authors

and, asking them random questions

832

:

and like getting their confessions.

833

:

And so it's been a good time, but it

has been, when I did it the first,

834

:

the first season, I like spent a

month just doing the interviews and

835

:

then I was able to schedule them out.

836

:

And that was cool for me, but I, it felt

like for some people they had a book out.

837

:

Mm-hmm.

838

:

And by the time their episode aired,

it wasn't like, you know what I mean?

839

:

So it was like, yeah, a little difficult.

840

:

So I was trying to do it like weekly, but.

841

:

It's so hard to do that.

842

:

Yeah.

843

:

And write and do all the other stuff.

844

:

But like, I'm, I'm keeping up

with it, but it, it's like, yeah.

845

:

Yeah.

846

:

Because even with this part, I started it,

I had the idea and I was just like, I'm

847

:

just, you know, I just like talking about,

I just love black romance books and, you

848

:

and, and then I had, I got my diagnosis.

849

:

So I probably did one or two episodes

before I, I was diagnosed and then

850

:

I kind of just put it to the side.

851

:

And even doing it biweekly is still a lot.

852

:

And I'm like, Ooh, okay, wait,

what I gotta do now, what?

853

:

Oh.

854

:

Because my real job,

855

:

my real life.

856

:

Woo.

857

:

Um, so it, it is a lot.

858

:

So I was like, and you know, and, and

so how are you balancing all that?

859

:

Because, you know, life be lifeing.

860

:

Yeah.

861

:

Because I'm like, you

doing it all over there.

862

:

Yeah, it's a lot.

863

:

And so I, what I had to scale back to is

just like, okay, I'm gonna do like three.

864

:

If there's four weeks and the

month, I'm like, three of the

865

:

weeks I'm doing interviews.

866

:

One week I'm gonna have to be up.

867

:

I hit up authors and just

say, are you busy right now?

868

:

Or are you busy tomorrow?

869

:

Can we do this?

870

:

And they like, so lovely.

871

:

I'm like, yes.

872

:

And so, I'm gonna ask

this as is with Nina.

873

:

'cause I feel like Nina would be spicy and

this would be a great question for Nina.

874

:

but you know, you can answer in

Danielle's, voice also, but what

875

:

would be Nina's favorite sex toy?

876

:

Rose.

877

:

You were very, is that Nina?

878

:

Or

879

:

Listen, it, it gets the job done now.

880

:

Now the rose ain't no joke.

881

:

Right.

882

:

And and especially with a

Ooh, with a partner though.

883

:

Exactly.

884

:

so yes, Nina knows what she wants.

885

:

Yeah.

886

:

And she like very like, okay, like, so

if she's trying to get off, she's gonna

887

:

go with the thing that is a guarantee.

888

:

Like, and so yeah, because ooh, all that

reminds me of it uh, I hate the book.

889

:

It's not out yet.

890

:

There is, yeah.

891

:

No spoilers.

892

:

Yes.

893

:

I'm like, oh, but that reminder of

that, the one scene, and I'm like, Ooh.

894

:

Um, see, I, I feel like you have

to come back because I feel like

895

:

we have to discuss the sex scenes.

896

:

Yes.

897

:

Because I feel like I, because I just

told somebody the, yesterday, I was like,

898

:

no, I don't want, like, don't talk about

X, Y, and Z because like I know that I

899

:

can't pull it after the books come out.

900

:

Like, 'cause some people just be spoiling

everything just because they can't.

901

:

Yeah.

902

:

I was like, but I don't want

it spoiled before it comes out.

903

:

I feel like I put too

much hard work into it.

904

:

All I can say is Russell.

905

:

Russell.

906

:

Russell.

907

:

Listen.

908

:

Listen.

909

:

Okay.

910

:

So.

911

:

what's next for Danielle after

The next one is Big girl blitz.

912

:

Big girl.

913

:

Blitz plus size player is

out June 10th, is that right?

914

:

Yes.

915

:

June 10th.

916

:

June plus size player is next.

917

:

Yes.

918

:

Big girl.

919

:

Blin is April 20.

920

:

Is that next?

921

:

When does that come out?

922

:

You can pre-order it now, right?

923

:

Yes, it's available for pre-order.

924

:

Go ahead and get it so that you are ready

with not only Jazz's story, but update

925

:

on, on our girls and to see what they,

how they live in and what they up to.

926

:

And so it's a good time as I feel

like Jasmine might outdo everybody.

927

:

I'd be like, I, I love every single story

for different reasons, like they're.

928

:

But all three of them, the

stories are very impactful.

929

:

But what I love about Jasmine's

in particular is that you get to

930

:

see the little bow on everything

because it goes beyond what you saw

931

:

in the other, other women's books.

932

:

And so, and when is Jasmine coming up?

933

:

April, 2026.

934

:

2026.

935

:

Yeah.

936

:

Yeah.

937

:

So, okay.

938

:

11 months a little bit.

939

:

Okay.

940

:

If we must, I just, I have to, I just

have to finish your back catalog.

941

:

I'm scared of your back

Catalog after broken process.

942

:

Don't, don't be scared.

943

:

Don't be scared.

944

:

That romantic fiction, all the

other ones are romance, like okay.

945

:

They're all the romance except

for the three nonfiction ones.

946

:

All the rest are, are romance.

947

:

So there you have it.

948

:

Go pre-order, uh, plus

size player June 10th.

949

:

Go pre-order Big Girl Blitz April, 2026.

950

:

Yes.

951

:

Uh, Danielle, thank you so much

for joining me on Culture Lit.

952

:

your work, uh, again, I'm astounded,

continues to entertain, empower,

953

:

and uplift black women everywhere,

especially the big girls.

954

:

So thank you.

955

:

I'm so grateful for your

stories, the joy, the heat, the

956

:

confidence you put on every page.

957

:

I am a stand This may now a

Danielle Allen Stand podcast.

958

:

I love it.

959

:

I love it.

960

:

Love it.

961

:

Thank you.

962

:

And let us know where the listeners

can connect with you online.

963

:

So Danielle Allen.

964

:

And that's dot com, that's on TikTok,

that's on Instagram, that's on Facebook.

965

:

I have a blue Sky account that I

forgetting, but like, find me on there.

966

:

Me too.

967

:

Like when I, I'm like, oh yeah,

lemme post something local.

968

:

It'll be, but like Instagram,

TikTok, Facebook, I'm Danielle.

969

:

And then my, Patreon is, um,

the Art of Being Danielle.

970

:

So, okay, you'll follow

me on page nine Awesome.

971

:

So there you have it.

972

:

plus Size player Plus Size Player

drops June 10th from Bramble Romance.

973

:

If you haven't already,

please go pre-order that book.

974

:

You will not be disappointed.

975

:

Tell your friends and get

ready for Nina and Russell.

976

:

Until next time, stay lit, stay loved,

and keep reading that Black Romance.

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About the Podcast

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Culture Lit
A Black Romance Books Podcast

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Octavia Dosier